Ascend - The Great Books Podcast

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson of Pepperdine University discuss cantos 13-17 of Dante's Purgatorio--the purging of envy and wrath.
Check out our 51 question and answer guide (35 pages!) to the Purgatorio.
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Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson joins Deacon Harrison Garlick to discuss Cantos 13–17, covering the terraces of envy (Canto 13) and wrath (Cantos 14–17), with a strong focus on the central discourses in the middle of the Comedy.
In Canto 13, the envious have their eyelids sewn shut with iron wire, a contrapasso that forces them to rely on others and recognize interdependence. Wilson explains: “envy is to look cross-eyed on another's blessings... to look askance,” and the disembodied voices proclaim examples of generosity (Cana, “I am Orestes,” “Love them from whom you’ve suffered evil”), teaching a mindset of abundance over scarcity (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson). Sapia humbly confesses her envy and malice, contrasting with the divisive souls in Inferno.
Cantos 14–15 transition to wrath, with visions of meekness (Mary and Joseph seeking Jesus, a tyrant sparing a youth, Stephen forgiving his stoners) and Virgil’s discourse on goods: exhaustible earthly goods versus inexhaustible spiritual ones. Wilson notes: “envy stems from a mindset of scarcity versus Mary’s mindset of abundance... able to supply where it looks like there’s not enough in the world” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson).
The pivotal Canto 16 (the exact midpoint of the Comedy) features Marco Lombardo’s sermon on free will: “If the present world has gone astray, the cause is in you, look at yourselves” (Marco via transcript). Wilson calls it “the clearest sermon that Dante has about what’s wrong with the world,” emphasizing that sin arises from misused free will, not fate or stars, and critiques the separation of temporal and spiritual powers.
Canto 17 concludes the wrath terrace with Virgil’s discourse on love as the root of all action (“Neither Creator nor creature was ever without love... natural or of the mind” – Virgil via transcript), which can be misdirected, deficient, or excessive. Wilson highlights the shift from reason to grace: “reason can’t do it alone... you need this other kind of intervention” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson). The cantos underscore Purgatorio’s hopeful pedagogy: purgation reorders love through grace, habituation, and contemplation, moving from misdirected to deficient love in preparation for the excessive attachments above. Wilson stresses the urgency: “the Purgatorio shows humanity in motion, dynamic humanity... it has the immediacy... that is an urgency to it” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson).
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Great Books Podcast
04:06 Exploring Dante's Purgatorio
07:20 The Great Books Program at Pepperdine University
10:18 The Significance of Purgatorio
13:27 Understanding Envy in Purgatorio
16:17 Contrary Virtues: Generosity and Kindness
19:22 The Role of Sight and Blindness in Envy
22:15 Dante's Moral Lessons on Envy
25:14 Comparative Analysis with Inferno
30:33 Dante's Poetic Structure and Contrapasso
32:15 Comparative Analysis of Characters in Inferno and Purgatorio
33:54 The Role of Good and Bad Examples in Moral Education
34:14 The Shift from Temporal to Eternal Mindsets
34:20 Understanding Canto 14: The Importance of Examples
39:35 Canto 15: The Inquiry into Goods and Wrath
49:58 Canto 16: The Purging of Wrath and Examples of Virtue
51:35 Ecstatic Visions and Penitent Souls
52:19 The Tyrant's Moment of Virtue
53:28 Humanity in Purgatorio
54:38 The Role of Mary in Purgatory
56:02 Saint Stephen's Example of Forgiveness
57:12 Virgil's Limitations as a Guide
59:12 The Nature of Freedom in Purgatory
01:03:07 The Importance of Canto 16
01:04:37 Understanding Freedom in Dante's Context
01:07:32 The Role of Law and Governance
01:14:39 Self-Reflection and the State of the World
01:23:48 Exploring Wrath in Purgatory
01:30:57 Understanding the Structure of Purgatory
Keywords: Dante's Purgatorio, Cantos 13-17, spiritual growth, virtues and vices, education, great books, Dante analysis Dante's Divine Comedy, Purgatory, Virtues and Vices, Free Will, Theology, Morality, Literature, Catholic Teaching, Spiritual Journey

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Garlick and Mr. Luke Heintschel, headmaster of Coeur du Christ Academy, discuss the rest of ante-purgatory and then the first terrace--the purging of pride.
Check out our GUIDE: 51 QUESTIONS ON THE PURGATORIO.
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The conversation explores the transition from Ante-Purgatory into the proper mountain of Purgatory and the first terrace dedicated to purging the sin of pride. Garlick describes this section as one of his favorites in the entire Purgatorio, praising Dante’s ability to provide a rich “liturgy” and spiritual library of resources for reshaping the soul into the beautiful image of Christ. The episode emphasizes Purgatorio as a positive map for sanctification and theosis, contrasting sharply with the Inferno’s exposure of sin’s ugliness.Guest Introduction and Classical Education Insights
Luke Heintschel shares his personal journey from evangelization and biblical theology into classical education, explaining how he came to see the liberal arts tradition—long cultivated by the Church—as the most effective means of making Catholicism relevant to contemporary young people. He describes his school’s mission of forming saints, scholars, and servants through the historic Catholic educational model. Deacon and Heintschel discuss the harmony of faith and reason, noting how reading great books alongside Scripture and theology reveals that the God who grants intellect is the same God who died on the cross. They highlight the value of using Dante’s Purgatorio in moral theology classes, where it serves not as a list of rules but as a vivid portrayal of transforming the heart’s disordered loves toward their divine end.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Ascend and Dante's Purgatorio
09:02 Understanding Purgatorio: A Map for Spiritual Growth
15:17 Dante's Intercessory Prayer and Its Significance
24:13 The Role of Beatrice and the Nature of Beauty
34:53 Dante's Political Critique and the State of Italy
43:05 The Call to Higher Patriotism
53:44 Understanding Virtue: Natural vs. Theological
59:35 The Valley of the Kings: Political Failures and Redemption
01:15:02 Dante's Heroism and Divine Grace
01:19:41 The Three Steps to Purification
01:28:10 The Role of Humility in Purgatory
01:51:27 The Purpose of Purification
01:59:24 Contrappasso: The Nature of Punishment in Purgatory
02:04:44 Examples of Pride: Lessons from the Past
02:16:26 The Beatitudes and the Path to Humility
02:23:47 Eagerness to Ascend: The Transformation of the Soul
Moral Theology and the Purpose of Purgatorio
The hosts stress that moral theology is not merely about avoiding sin but about becoming beautiful like Christ through active configuration to His image. Purgatorio offers a lifelong guide for this ascent, presenting prayers, hymns, scriptural examples, and artistic visions tailored to remedy each vice. They critique modern reductions of ethics to a “negative list” of prohibitions, arguing that Dante invites readers to pursue positive virtue and interior change.
In Canto 6, the souls in Ante-Purgatory eagerly seek Dante’s prayers, illustrating the Catholic doctrine of intercession for the dead as a participation in Christ’s merits. Virgil explains that purgation is possible through the resurrection, and the episode includes a brief catechesis on the communion of saints across the Church Militant, Penitent, and Triumphant. Beatrice is presented as an icon of divine beauty and grace, with the pilgrim’s desire for her serving as a ladder of ascent from earthly eros to divine charity. Dante’s political lament critiques Italy’s fractured state and absent emperor, yearning for the proper balance of temporal and spiritual powers (duo sunt).
Canto 7 introduces the Valley of the Princes—failed rulers delayed for neglecting their Christian vocation—while the night rule underscores that ascent requires God’s grace (symbolized by the sun). The princes sing Salve Regina, submitting to the true Queen, Mary.
Cantos 8–9: Nighttime Vigil, Dream, and Entry into Purgatory
Canto 8 features angels driving off the serpent of temptation in a repeated catechetical drama, while the souls sing Te lucis ante terminum to entrust the night to God.
In Canto 9, St. Lucy (meaning “light”) carries the sleeping Dante upward, emphasizing that grace, not human effort, enables ascent. The three steps to the Gate of Purgatory symbolize self-knowledge (polished white marble), contrition (cracked dark stone), and penance (fiery red porphyry). An angel inscribes seven P’s (peccata, sins) on Dante’s forehead and uses the keys of Peter—commanded to err on the side of mercy—to open the gate, accompanied by the Te Deum.
Cantos 10–12: The First Terrace – Purging Pride
The first terrace features marble reliefs of humility: the Annunciation (Mary’s fiat), David dancing before the Ark, and Emperor Trajan aiding a widow. These Christian and pagan examples of the contrary virtue counter pride. The proud souls carry massive boulders that force them to bow low, habituating humility through a purifying contrapasso. The ground displays carved examples of pride’s fall—Lucifer, the Tower of Babel, Niobe, Saul, Arachne, Rehoboam, and others—often alternating biblical and classical stories to show pride’s universal danger. The souls recite an expanded Our Father, praying intercessorily for those on earth, and the Beatitude “Blessed are the poor in spirit” is sung sweetly. As pride is purged, an angel removes one P, the soul grows eager and light-footed, and Virgil laughs—a rare moment of joy signaling progress in the ascent.Closing and Next Steps
Deacon thanks Heintschel for his insights and reminds listeners that Purgatorio functions as both literary masterpiece and practical spiritual guide.
The next episode will cover Cantos 13–17 (envy and wrath) with Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson of Pepperdine University.
Keywords
Dante's Purgatorio, Christian Virtues, Intercessory Prayer, Classical Education, Theology, Morality, Politics, Dante's Guide, Beatrice, Virgil Dante's Purgatorio, humility, pride, spiritual journey, classical analogies, biblical themes, liturgical imagery, virtue, contrapasso, purgation

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Donald Prudlo, the Warren Chair of Catholic Studies at the University of Tulsa, discuss the Ante-Purgatory, the foot of Mount Purgatory (Cantos 1-5).
Check out our guide on Dante's Purgatorio (out soon!)
Visit Dr. Jason Baxter's website and use "Ascend" in the promo code for 20% off his Purgatorio audiobook.
Thanks for the Center for Beauty and Culture at Benedictine College for their support!
The conversation with Dr. Prudlo and Deacon Garlick on Cantos 1–5 of Purgatorio opens with the dramatic shift from the despair of Inferno to the hope and refreshment of Purgatory.
In Canto 1, Dante and Virgil emerge from Hell onto the shores of Mount Purgatory at Easter dawn, where Dante humbly invokes Calliope, the Muse of epic poetry, signaling his project as “the Christian epic” (Dr. Donald Prudlo). They meet Cato the Younger, a pagan suicide saved by special grace, who embodies the four cardinal virtues and serves as Purgatory’s guardian. Prudlo emphasizes the shock: “Cato the pagan, the suicide is going to heaven. And we have got to confront that or we're going to miss so much of what Dante has to tell us here” (Dr. Donald Prudlo). The ritual of washing with dew and girding with the humble reed contrasts the broken plants of the suicides in Hell and symbolizes the beginning of true humility and ascent.
Cantos 2–5 introduce the late-repentant souls and the mountain’s structure. In Canto 2, an angelic boat ferries souls singing “In exitu Israel de Aegypto,” a psalm of liberation that Prudlo calls “a multifaceted song” evoking Exodus, baptism, and community (Dr. Donald Prudlo). Casella’s song of Dante’s own poetry enchants the group until Cato rebukes their idleness.
Cantos 3–5 explore excommunicated sinners like Manfred (“even under a curse like mine, no one's ever so lost that eternal love cannot come back, as long as hope has any sprouts of green” – Manfred via transcript) and the slothful Belacqua, who banters with Dante like old friends. Prudlo highlights the power of last-minute mercy and intercession: “Mary is the last refuge of sinners” (Dr. Donald Prudlo). The cantos teach that Purgatory is a place of communal hope, where grace reaches even the unlikely, and purification begins with humility, prayer, and rightly ordered love—setting the stage for the active ascent through the terraces.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Dante's Purgatorio
04:42 The Importance of Reading Purgatorio
08:02 Themes of Emancipation and Freedom
10:57 The Role of Cato in Purgatorio
13:49 Cato's Significance and Political Implications
17:00 Cato as a Precursor to Christ
19:51 Dante's Literary Techniques and Inspirations
22:56 Contrasting Ulysses and Dante
25:36 Cato's Death and Its Symbolism
28:52 The Nature of Purgatory and Salvation
31:51 Cato's Virtues and Their Relevance
34:49 The Relationship Between Cato and Christ
37:48 Conclusion and Reflections on Purgatorio
50:03 Understanding Cato's Role in Purgatorio
52:43 The Heartbreaking Choice of Cato
54:39 Rituals and Purification in Purgatory
01:00:18 The Arrival at Purgatory
01:06:34 The Significance of Water in Salvation
01:12:09 Virgil's Role and the Nature of Guidance
01:24:57 Manfred: A Case of Late Repentance
01:29:38 The Role of Intercessory Prayer in Purgatory
01:34:00 Understanding Mount Purgatory and Its Significance
01:40:15 The Character of Belacqua and Themes of Friendship
01:45:22 Late Repentance and the Nature of Mercy
01:54:16 Mary as Intercessor and the Nature of Salvation
02:00:25 The Concept of Divine Justice and Mercy
02:07:53 Final Reflections on Dante's Purgatorio
Keywords: Dante, Purgatorio, spiritual growth, Cato the Younger, community, freedom, liberty, friendship, baptism, Easter, Dante, Purgatory, Virgil, Divine Comedy, late repentance, intercessory prayer, Mary, salvation, medieval theology, mercy.

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dr. Jason Baxter and Dcn. Harrison Garlick come together to introduce Dante's Purgatorio and Dr. Baxter's new translation!
We are reading Dante's Purgatorio for Lent. Join us!
Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule!
Check out our LIBRARY of written guides to the great books!
DISCOUNT: Check out Dr. Jason Baxter's website and enter "Ascend" to receive **20%** off the Purgatorio audiobook read by Dr. Baxter!
Check out Dr. Baxter's Substack article on his new translation.
And thank you to the Center of Beauty and Culture at Benedictine College for promoting this reading of the Purgatorio!
Dr. Baxter first describes the Center for Beauty and Culture at Benedictine College as a fellowship program (Angelico Fellows) that immerses students in beauty across the arts, music, literature, and theology—through concerts, museums, and pilgrimages—to foster interiority and the conviction that “beauty can save the world.”
The conversation then contrasts Purgatorio with the Inferno: while the latter is dark, lurid, and focused on judgment, Purgatorio is a place of hope, mercy, transformation, and “eternal New Year’s resolutions,” where repentant souls engage in spiritual exercises to purify their tarnished mirrors, learn authentic love and prayer, and prepare for Paradise. Baxter likens the shift to moving from heavy metal to Schubert, emphasizing greenness, brightness, and unexpected mercy.
Baxter explains that his translation began as a personal quest for mastery—going word-by-word to internalize Dante like memorizing a piano piece—but evolved into a philosophy capturing Dante’s “fugue” of style: ascending, prolix syntax with lofty classical allusions layered over humble, earthy words that reflect Franciscan humility and incarnational Christian poetics. Examples include goats ruminating on the “foco d’amore” (fire of love) amid elevated star imagery, or Statius calling Virgil’s Aeneid “una mamma” (translated “mommy”).
He describes Purgatorio as spiritual surgery—painfully removing the soul’s “carcinogenic” elements through grace-filled cooperation—and a map for configuring to Christ beyond mere sin avoidance. Baxter advises first-time readers to pause at puzzling images or word choices, ask “why would Dante do that here?,” trust their instincts, and consider his audiobook for the text’s soundscape, while Deacon Garlick stresses the canticle’s role as a spiritual guide that mirrors one’s own maturation toward God.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Ascend and Dante's Purgatorio
03:43 The Center for Beauty and Culture
05:40 Understanding Dante's Purgatorio
07:54 The Nature of Purgatorio
14:54 Dante the Pilgrim vs. Dante the Poet
19:32 The Spirituality of Translation
20:14 The Philosophy of Translation
30:02 Dante's Christian Poetics
34:22 Exploring Dante's Poetic Style
36:51 Juxtaposition in Dante's Imagery
41:42 The Concept of Spiritual Surgery
44:49 The Journey of Holiness
48:13 The Role of Love in Dante's Theology
52:00 Eros and the Ascent to Divine Beauty
55:29 Engaging with Dante: Tips for First-Time Readers
Join us next week as we start Dante's Purgatorio for Lent!
SCHEDULE:
2.10.26: Introduction with Dr. Jason Baxter, Benedictine College
2.17.26: Cantos 1-5 (Ante-Purgatory) with Dr. Donald Prudlo, University of Tulsa
2.24.26: Cantos 6-12 (Ante-Purgatory, Gate, First Terrace) with Luke Heintschel, Headmaster, Coeur du Christ Academy
3.3.26: Cantos 13-17 (Envy and Wrath) with Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson, Pepperdine University
3.10.26: Cantos 18-22 (Avarice and Prodigality) with Dr. Sarah Berry, University of Dallas
3.17.26: Cantos 23-27 (Gluttony and Lust) with Fr. Patrick Briscoe, OP
3.24.26: Cantos 28-31 (Earthly Paradise) with Dr. Michael West, University of Dallas.
3.31.26: Cantos 32-33 (Beatrice) with Joshua Charles and Dr. Frank Grabowski, Holy Family Classical School
DISCOUNT: Check out Dr. Jason Baxter's website and enter "Ascend" to receive **20%** off the Purgatorio audiobook read by Dr. Baxter!
PS - Like the icon in the background? Check out Joey Bremer's incredible hand painted icons!

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Justin Jackson host a Q&A on Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. They explore major themes such as the role of femininity, the moral dilemmas faced by Gawain, and the significance of the girdle.
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Check out our episodes on Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and our study guide!
Visit Professor Jackson's awesome SUBSTACK.
The conversation highlights Gawain's character development, the tension between chivalric ideals and Christian morality, and the Green Knight's role as a tempter. Through a detailed analysis, they uncover the layers of meaning within the poem, emphasizing the intentional tension crafted by the poet.
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guests
03:13 Teaching 'Sir Gawain and the Green Knight'
06:34 The Role of Women in the Poem
12:27 The Tension Between Pagan and Christian Elements
21:57 Gawain's Moral Dilemmas and Compartmentalization
28:05 The Confession Scene and Its Implications
37:02 Confession and Contrition
40:56 The Green Knight's Dual Role
51:58 Chivalry, Cowardice, and the Girdle
01:02:50 Symbolism of Colors in Gawain
01:07:31 The Intensity of the Green Knight
01:08:36 Gawain's Confrontation and Internal Conflict
01:11:29 The Symbolism of the Green Girdle
01:17:24 The Ending: Bliss and Blunder
01:26:19 Final Thoughts on Gawain's Journey
Keywords
Sir Gawain, Green Knight, themes, femininity, chivalry, morality, confession, literature, medieval, analysis, Sir Gawain, Green Knight, chivalry, medieval literature, symbolism, courtly love, Morgan Le Fay, color symbolism, moral lessons, literary analysis, great books, philosophy, Catholic, Catholicism
Takeaways
The tension in the poem is intentional and significant.
Gawain's character is complex, showcasing both strengths and weaknesses.
The role of femininity is prominent and influential in the narrative.
The girdle symbolizes Gawain's internal conflict and moral struggles.
Gawain's confession scene raises important questions about sincerity and contrition.
The Green Knight serves as a tempter, challenging Gawain's virtues.
The poem explores the interplay between pagan and Christian ideals.
Gawain's journey reflects a maturation of character and understanding.
The hunting scenes parallel Gawain's temptations and moral choices.
The poet's use of language invites readers to engage deeply with the text.
The nick on the neck symbolizes Gawain's failure in chivalry and Christianity.
The poet uses precise language to draw parallels between Gawain's actions and the Green Knight's.
The kisses exchanged in the poem have both courtly and liturgical significance.
Morgan Le Fay's role raises questions about manipulation and temptation in the narrative.
Color symbolism in the poem serves multiple interpretations, particularly with green and red.
Gawain's cowardice is a central theme, reflecting on self-preservation and honor.
The green girdle represents both shame and a form of glory for Gawain.
The ending of the poem invites reflection on the nature of mirth and mockery in chivalric culture.
The final motto suggests a moral principle about projecting one's faults onto others.
The cyclical nature of bliss and blunder is a key takeaway from the poem's conclusion.

We start the Purgatorio next week! Join us!