Law of Nature: Part Three of Plato's Gorgias with Dr. Gregory McBrayer
In the incredible final act of Plato’s Gorgias (481–527), Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Greg McBrayer (Ashland University, New Thinkery podcast) tackle the longest and most brutal confrontation: Socrates versus Callicles, the most shameless, most ambitious, and—as Greg insists—nastiest character in all of Plato. Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our read schedule!Check out our COLLECTION OF GUIDES to the great books.Go to THE ASCENT to receive two spiritual lessons a week.Callicles storms in threatening to “whoop Socrates in the mouth” and delivers the most radical claim yet: conventional justice is a sham invented by the weak; by nature the superior should rule, take more, and live without restraint—coining the first recorded “law of nature” in Western literature to mean might makes right (482e–484c). Socrates flips the argument, forces Callicles to admit intelligence without self-control is mere cleverness, and reduces his unlimited-pleasure principle to absurdity with the leaky-jar and escalating vulgar examples (constant scratching, the catamite, 494–495), provoking Callicles’ outraged “Aren’t you ashamed?”—proof he still clings to the noble (kalon) despite his bravado.At 503a Socrates finally reveals the two kinds of rhetoric: the shameful, flattering kind that seeks only pleasure, and the true, noble rhetoric that “makes the souls of citizens as good as possible” and strives to say “what is best” whether pleasant or painful—the kind Socrates claims to be the only Athenian practicing (521d). When Callicles becomes completely recalcitrant, Socrates turns to the audience with the unforgettable myth of naked souls judged by dead judges (523a–527e): every injustice leaves visible scars no rhetoric or power can hide; the cosmos itself is ordered toward justice and will not allow injustice to triumph forever. Athens is about to execute its only true statesman, but the myth promises that in the final reckoning Socrates’ just soul will shine while his accusers’ scarred souls stand exposed. The dialogue ends not with Callicles’ conversion but with Socrates’ quiet vindication: living justly is ultimately worth it, even in a city that kills its best citizen. Next week: a short break from Plato for Flannery O’Connor’s “The Lame Shall Enter First.”
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Tyranny v Philosophy: Part Two of Plato's Gorgias with Dr. Matthew Bianco
Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Matthew Bianco of the Circe Institute discuss the second part of Plato's Gorgias--the dialogue between Socrates and Polus—Gorgias’ spirited, “colt-like” student who bursts in at 461b accusing his own teacher of being “too ashamed” to admit rhetoric needs no justice, only the power to persuade. Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule.Visit our LIBRARY OF WRITTEN GUIDES to the great books.Visit our sister publication, THE ASCENT, for two spiritual lessons per week.What follows is pure Platonic fireworks: Socrates refuses long speeches, forces short questions, and delivers the unforgettable pastry-baker analogy (462–466a), branding rhetoric as mere flattery—like cookery or cosmetics for the soul—that “has no speech to give about the nature of the things” (465a). Polus agrees with several premises yet recoils when Socrates concludes that doing injustice is worse than suffering it, and the unpunished tyrant is the unhappiest man alive (478–479). The conversation spirals into a shocking vision of punishment as medicine for the soul: the wrongdoer should run to the judge “as to a doctor” (480b). Throughout, the hosts explore whether rhetoric itself is evil or only rhetoric divorced from philosophy, using the tripartite soul as a foothold—Gorgias as corrupted intellect, Polus as honor-craving thumos, Callicles (next week) as unashamed appetite—while Socrates models a just soul governing all three. Dr. Bianco brings fresh insight into Socrates’ tailored pedagogy and the happiness that only a philosophical rhetoric can truly serve.Key Themes & Search Tags:• Plato's Gorgias• Polus• Rhetoric vs Philosophy• Tripartite Soul• Doing injustice vs suffering injustice• Punishment as medicine• Pastry-baker analogy• Classical Education• Socrates pedagogy• Pleonexia• Happiness eudaimonia
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Rhetoric and Philosophy: Part One of the Gorgias with Athenian Stranger and Johnathan Bi
"In war and battle, this is the way to do your part."Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick is joined by the Athenian Stranger and Johnathan Bi to introduce the Gorgias and discuss the first part: the dialogue of Gorgias and Socrates.What begins as a polite inquiry into the nature of rhetoric erupts into a war for the soul of Athens—and for every reader seeking the good life. Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule.Visit our COLLECTION OF GUIDES to the great books. Visit Athenian Stranger.Visit Johnathan Bi.Athenian Stranger frames the conflict as two competing “technologies” of speech: Gorgias’ art that grants “freedom for oneself and empire over everyone else” (452d) versus Socrates’ dialectical practice that knows “the natures and causes of things” (464b–465a). The dialogue’s three-part structure—shortest with reserved Gorgias, medium with spirited Polus, longest with shameless Callicles—spirals downward, exposing pleonexia (infinite grasping desire) beneath all three souls. Dcn. Harrison Garlick underscores the dialogue’s raw honesty: Athenian youth, like us, faced a nihilistic void after the gods’ decline, craving tyranny over truth. Philosophical gems abound—“better to be harmed than harm,” “better to be punished than escape justice”—while the pastry-baker analogy brands rhetoric without philosophy as mere flattery. The world that Socrates is engaging with is far more like our world than I think I realized… nihilism as a modern phenomenon? You see this really with the young men of Athens too.” - Dcn. Harrison Garlick“We all have erotic longings. The question is, they of the noble things that separate us from the beasts or are they of the bodily pleasures?” - Athenian StrangerNext episode: Polus defends raw power with Dr. Matthew Bianco (Circe Institute).
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Plato's Meno and Education with Dr. Daniel Wagner
Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Daniel Wagner dive into Plato’s Meno as a masterclass in education, contrasting Meno’s stagnant, power-seeking sophistry with his slave boy’s humble, rapid learning during the famous geometry demonstration.Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule.See our COLLECTION OF GUIDES on the great books.Check out our sister publication, THE ASCENT, for spiritual lessons.They explore aporia (perplexity) as a vital pedagogical tool requiring courage and humility, the theory of recollection as a rhetorical device rather than doctrine, and the distinction between stable knowledge (phronesis) and fleeting right opinion (doxa). Ultimately, virtue is teachable as knowledge, but demands active practice from the student—explaining why even great statesmen like Pericles failed to pass it to their sons. The dialogue emerges as a warning: don’t be a Meno; embrace the discomfort of not-knowing to pursue truth.“Don’t be a Meno.” - Dr. Wagner“Learning isn’t just rote memorization… it’s ordered toward nous – intellectual insight into reality.” - Dr. Wagner“Classical education is the best model of actually conforming the mind to reality." - Dcn. Harrison GarlickRead Plato’s Meno to see education in action: a proud sophist stays stuck while a humble slave boy learns geometry in minutes, proving that real learning demands courage, humility, and active pursuit of truth. It’s the perfect wake-up call—don’t be a Meno.
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Halloween Short Story: The Chief Mourner of Marne by GK Chesterton
HALLOWEEN SPECIAL! In this episode, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Joseph Boyne explore G.K. Chesterton's short story 'The Chief Mourner of Marne,' discussing its themes, characters, and moral implications. Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule!Check out our COLLECTION OF GUIDES TO THE GREAT BOOKS.They delve into the significance of transformative texts in education, the role of Father Brown as a detective, and the interplay between Gothic literature and Halloween motifs. The conversation highlights the importance of Christian charity and the complexities of forgiveness, ultimately reflecting on the deeper meanings within Chesterton's work and the nature of storytelling.Keywords: G.K. Chesterton, Father Brown, The Chief Mourner of Marne, Halloween, Gothic literature, Christian charity, transformative texts, literature analysis, podcast, education
Welcome to Ascend!
We are a weekly Great Books podcast hosted by Deacon Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan.
What are the Great Books?
The Great Books are the most impactful texts that have shaped Western civilization. They include ancients like Homer, Plato, St. Augustine, Dante, and St. Thomas Aquinas, and also moderns like Machiavelli, Locke, and Nietzsche. We will explore the Great Books with the light of the Catholic intellectual tradition.
Why should we read the Great Books?
Everyone is a disciple of someone. A person may have never read Locke or Nietzsche, but he or she thinks like them. Reading the Great Books allows us to reclaim our intellect and understand the origin of the ideas that shape our world. We enter a "great conversation" amongst the most learned, intelligent humans in history and benefit from their insights.
Is this for first-time readers?
YES. Our goal is to host meaningful conversations on the Great Books by working through the texts in chronological order in a slow, attentive manner. Our host Adam Minihan is a first-time reader of Homer. We will start shallow and go deep. All are invited to join.
Will any resources be available?
YES. We are providing a free 115 Question & Answer Guide to the Iliad written by Deacon Harrison Garlick in addition to our weekly conversations. It will be available on the website (launching next week).
Go pick up a copy of the Iliad!
We look forward to reading Homer with you in 2024.
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